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hey well uh i'm back jim i want to

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welcome you hi ted thanks for showing up

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and you know our co-host here jim

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nichols

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uh what kind of goodies have you brought

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for us today you know we brought you

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down here because uh in fact i've been

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trying to get you for a long time i

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usually go and see you but you've you

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brought your computer are you going to

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tell us a little bit of yeah let's start

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let's start back with the meijer yes and

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how you were contacted and uh how it

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went from there

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well the meyer case was

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in the late 70s and was actually the

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first case that i worked on that was a

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new case

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prior to that i had been working on

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testing the

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uh quote official photo set that apro

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put out

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afro the aerial phenomena research

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organization based in tucson arizona

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right

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jim lorenzen and wendell stevens brought

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me a set of about 30 photographs i think

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really to see what my procedures were

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and were they a valid procedure

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prior to that i had been working in

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film and television and transfer of

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scientific data to film and television

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and i worked somewhat on the shroud of

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turin project and getting that

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into a scientific data into a form that

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would be useful in a film

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so i worked out a procedure i

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investigated many other procedures

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manufacturers software nasa medical

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companies a lot involved

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came up with a procedure

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tested the pictures

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in about 1977 february

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of 1978

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was when the next trip to switzerland

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happened and a lot of new pictures

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i came back and we

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used our new procedures and tested the

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pictures now when wendell and and app

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wrote jim lorenzen came to you what did

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they want

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to know was there a procedure already in

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the uh i guess in the files was

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something going on to being able to test

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photographs at this time or was this

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something basically well i didn't know

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what existed

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at that time

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the

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testing photographs optically

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of course since the 50s

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a or an organization in tucson ground

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saucer watch

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had developed a computer procedure but i

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couldn't find

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enough about it

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what the procedures were that could be

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repeatable

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so

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we really had to

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start at ground zero build scale models

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take photographs of miniature trucks and

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buses and cars and real cars and

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airplanes and build a database that we

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could count on because people were

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counting on me

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to give them an accurate uh set of facts

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so

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pursuit what were you looking for in

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these photographs that could

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authenticate them or well prove them

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false uh

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basically you're you are analyzing the

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edges of an object first

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uh and you are analyzing the contour and

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the light scatter over the surface

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now that's done with the computer after

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film grain examination has been done the

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micro densitometer

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analysis of the film grain is this is

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this a dub have two pictures a slides

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been sandwiched one on top of the other

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etc okay let's say you get all that out

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of the way there's a lot of procedures

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we can talk about about with that

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but essentially

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a large object and a small object have

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different properties

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light and edges

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a camera takes an object

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in and out of focus

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and changes the properties of the edges

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like these television studio cameras

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here

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when an object goes in and out of focus

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what's really happening the edges are

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changing

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and by measuring the nature of those

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edges you can determine

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where the object sits in a quote depth

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of field

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light on an object

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let's just take

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you know anything curved my pen this pen

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the pen is all black

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but because of the lights it puts a a

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white stripe on the light right the

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larger the object

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the smaller

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the percentage the ratio of that dot

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because the light's going to remain the

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same

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so

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what that means is a large object the

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sun would create a small

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line

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relative to the entire surface a small

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object the sun's still the same size

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so the relative surface area

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uh

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would be different on a small and a

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large object all right now this is what

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we saw in the the meyer film contact

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that that you were able to take the

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meyer photographs

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and uh compare those to a model of the

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beam ship

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and your

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procedure

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can determine which is the model right

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and which is the the the full scale

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crash yes

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so through your procedures you you

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basically

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prove that that meyer was in fact

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photographing

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30 foot 20 foot objects that

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you know that were

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actually there and not models or pay

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steps well the conclusion

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that you just drew can be taken out of

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the test results

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our testing shows that it is a large

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object the pictures that we tested

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and there are many other photographs in

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the meyer case but the pictures that we

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tested

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show a large object 21 feet in diameter

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at a great distance from the camera now

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whether that's piloted by

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extraterrestrials

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or

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tell because you just stick their arms

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out in the way

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but one of the issues uh one of the

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major detractions of the meyer case is

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that well he was just photographing

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models that he had models in his barn

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and so on so forth yes but what you were

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what you your analysis showed that

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at least some of the pictures were in

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fact large objects photographed at some

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distance from the camera that's correct

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there are large objects okay and we

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published reports about it right uh

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detractors of the case uh have never

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published reports

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of their analysis and their procedure

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and what equipment they used and what

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the software was and perhaps their

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opinion is valid they may be dignified

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scientists but they certainly

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did not

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do clear scientific work in analysis of

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ufo pictures and the meyer case

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the detractors i'm talking about

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so and what what surprised me because i

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didn't really know i'm watching this

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tape and i know jim um that he has other

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photographs that he's he's worked with

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but there was a like an aura of force

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field around that and it actually

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entrapped that what was it that other

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plane that was going by there there was

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another

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line inside there it seemed like there

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was a radiation or a force field around

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that

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there was

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um

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that photograph and three others

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i worked on with marcel vogel who is a

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research scientist at ibm

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and we theorized that there may be

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energy

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in the film grain in the film crystals

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that can be released by

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electromagnetic stimulation

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you have to start with a negative or

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a negative made from the negative can't

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be a negative a print and then a

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negative it has to be a piece of plastic

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light passes through it makes a new

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piece of plastic

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the idea is

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scientifically sound that energy is

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captured in crystals and by stimulation

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electromagnetic or ultrasound

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stimulation energy is released

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like a tuning fork a440 on a piano makes

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the tuning fork vibrate

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so you can release energy from the

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crystals and new energy is released and

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a new

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image

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on a charge-coupled plate is created it

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is that image that we tested

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and it seemed that there was an energy

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field around the craft

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so you recover you didn't uh in your

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analysis you didn't just inadvertently

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come across this this image that showed

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the field you you were

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actually looking for you had a concept

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that perhaps there was an energy field

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around this craft and is there a way we

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can maybe find it or record it here or

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see that it's been recorded while the

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world was trying to debunk the

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photographs we knew that they were real

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and had already gone on to the next step

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we were not in the ufo community where

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we felt like we had to defend ourselves

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right we just got on with it it was

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exciting

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i felt like i was on a mission from god

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you know

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to test the pictures

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so uh we continued and retested the

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pictures and came up with other methods

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because

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i guess i have to admit it was a little

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bit disconcerting when people say oh

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they don't know what they're doing they

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whatever they said you know

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right so we proceeded with methods and

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procedures in an attempt to really

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understand

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what this was i'd never seen pictures

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like this

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i worked in science and rock and roll

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and video and

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you know when you first see those

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pictures it's uh it's disorienting

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now have you taken this

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you continue to do photo analysis of

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other ufo sightings yes

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are you finding the similar energy

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patterns in other cases we have yes has

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the technology advanced uh quite a bit

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more that that

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uh you could go back to the meyer case

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again and take the

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and and without a doubt now

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of course then as technology progresses

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there'll always be more technology but

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yes

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uh do it again

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in a in a sense do it again to

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prove that you're right again to the

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naysayers i do it again all the time

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there they are

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demo pictures that live in our pcs

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the computing power that we had

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available to us in the late seventies

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fifty thousand a hundred thousand five

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hundred thousand dollar systems using

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mainframes and supercomputers

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that power is now on a pc

290
00:10:54,710 --> 00:10:51,680
the image processing software that we

291
00:10:58,389 --> 00:10:54,720
used to operate on a google 9000 now

292
00:11:00,310 --> 00:10:58,399
lives in photo styler and photoshop

293
00:11:01,509 --> 00:11:00,320
for a couple hundred dollars running on

294
00:11:04,710 --> 00:11:01,519
a pc

295
00:11:07,350 --> 00:11:04,720
same software though just because it's

296
00:11:08,630 --> 00:11:07,360
inexpensive does not change the validity

297
00:11:10,550 --> 00:11:08,640
of the testing

298
00:11:12,470 --> 00:11:10,560
so you can test pictures now if you have

299
00:11:15,750 --> 00:11:12,480
a proper scanner

300
00:11:18,230 --> 00:11:15,760
at 600 to 1200 dots per inch that's the

301
00:11:20,790 --> 00:11:18,240
resolution for people at home your

302
00:11:22,470 --> 00:11:20,800
television is about 400 dots though it's

303
00:11:24,470 --> 00:11:22,480
supposed to be 500

304
00:11:26,710 --> 00:11:24,480
dots so if you have a 12 inch tv it's

305
00:11:28,790 --> 00:11:26,720
500 dots per foot

306
00:11:31,910 --> 00:11:28,800
you need to scan a picture at about a

307
00:11:34,630 --> 00:11:31,920
thousand dots per inch

308
00:11:36,389 --> 00:11:34,640
to really be able to analyze that

309
00:11:40,230 --> 00:11:36,399
and we do that all the time

310
00:11:41,630 --> 00:11:40,240
and uh the meyer photographs

311
00:11:45,990 --> 00:11:41,640
from

312
00:11:47,509 --> 00:11:46,000
1976 to 1980 are absolutely a large

313
00:11:49,590 --> 00:11:47,519
object

314
00:11:51,190 --> 00:11:49,600
piloted by

315
00:11:53,509 --> 00:11:51,200
a large being

316
00:11:55,430 --> 00:11:53,519
let me see six feet tall now did you

317
00:11:57,670 --> 00:11:55,440
ever from that period of time

318
00:11:59,750 --> 00:11:57,680
did you ever find a consistency like a

319
00:12:02,870 --> 00:11:59,760
trademark that i'm sure that there what

320
00:12:05,269 --> 00:12:02,880
was there's six different crafts

321
00:12:07,670 --> 00:12:05,279
different types of craft five or six did

322
00:12:09,350 --> 00:12:07,680
one show up consistently and you could

323
00:12:11,670 --> 00:12:09,360
say yes that one was three years ago

324
00:12:12,949 --> 00:12:11,680
because it has the same characteristics

325
00:12:14,870 --> 00:12:12,959
as the other one does it have like a

326
00:12:16,870 --> 00:12:14,880
fingerprint when it comes to cameras

327
00:12:18,550 --> 00:12:16,880
there's two categories of

328
00:12:19,910 --> 00:12:18,560
characteristics

329
00:12:20,790 --> 00:12:19,920
um

330
00:12:24,389 --> 00:12:20,800
one

331
00:12:26,389 --> 00:12:24,399
is the relative proportions

332
00:12:28,470 --> 00:12:26,399
in the craft

333
00:12:31,030 --> 00:12:28,480
height to width

334
00:12:33,110 --> 00:12:31,040
dimensions the mathematics involved in

335
00:12:35,990 --> 00:12:33,120
the proportions of the craft

336
00:12:38,870 --> 00:12:36,000
that's one set of characteristics

337
00:12:41,269 --> 00:12:38,880
the various rings if you measure their

338
00:12:42,790 --> 00:12:41,279
diameters and can piece it together they

339
00:12:45,829 --> 00:12:42,800
will add up

340
00:12:47,509 --> 00:12:45,839
to a linear length that is directly a

341
00:12:50,150 --> 00:12:47,519
proportionate of the center we can get

342
00:12:51,990 --> 00:12:50,160
into that some other time it's

343
00:12:54,470 --> 00:12:52,000
very interesting in testing pictures

344
00:12:57,110 --> 00:12:54,480
sometimes now that's what i go for first

345
00:12:58,710 --> 00:12:57,120
i check the proportions

346
00:13:01,829 --> 00:12:58,720
the other very interesting thing in a

347
00:13:04,069 --> 00:13:01,839
commonality factor is

348
00:13:07,030 --> 00:13:04,079
the pulsing of the light

349
00:13:09,670 --> 00:13:07,040
the colors of the light that are around

350
00:13:13,190 --> 00:13:09,680
the craft if it's photographed at night

351
00:13:15,829 --> 00:13:13,200
there's a white color a specific blue

352
00:13:17,910 --> 00:13:15,839
white color and an orange color an

353
00:13:20,310 --> 00:13:17,920
orange amber color

354
00:13:22,550 --> 00:13:20,320
regardless of the kind of film the

355
00:13:24,389 --> 00:13:22,560
photographer after we've color corrected

356
00:13:27,350 --> 00:13:24,399
sometimes even if we don't color correct

357
00:13:30,069 --> 00:13:27,360
i can see it right away the pattern

358
00:13:32,150 --> 00:13:30,079
the relationship of the brightest

359
00:13:34,790 --> 00:13:32,160
hot spot in the center of the photograph

360
00:13:37,269 --> 00:13:34,800
and out to the edge some of the better

361
00:13:39,750 --> 00:13:37,279
photographs that we've analyzed are now

362
00:13:41,670 --> 00:13:39,760
in a computer program that'll be out in

363
00:13:43,910 --> 00:13:41,680
just a couple weeks in fact it's

364
00:13:46,710 --> 00:13:43,920
it's out in some places now that

365
00:13:50,230 --> 00:13:46,720
has hundreds of photographs in it

366
00:13:52,790 --> 00:13:50,240
and measure trends and characteristics

367
00:13:54,550 --> 00:13:52,800
and uh

368
00:13:58,310 --> 00:13:54,560
the ongoing characteristics are what's

369
00:14:01,269 --> 00:13:58,320
important i i want to ask you then so

370
00:14:04,150 --> 00:14:01,279
you cannot personally verify that the

371
00:14:06,069 --> 00:14:04,160
that the meyer the entire meyer cases

372
00:14:07,670 --> 00:14:06,079
is true or false because you were

373
00:14:11,110 --> 00:14:07,680
basically

374
00:14:13,350 --> 00:14:11,120
uh on just what maybe a hundred or fifty

375
00:14:14,470 --> 00:14:13,360
of the photographs is what you

376
00:14:16,870 --> 00:14:14,480
physically

377
00:14:19,430 --> 00:14:16,880
uh went over and checked and verified

378
00:14:21,430 --> 00:14:19,440
well i've been exposed to a few hundred

379
00:14:22,870 --> 00:14:21,440
photographs in the video and film of

380
00:14:27,030 --> 00:14:22,880
course and other

381
00:14:29,430 --> 00:14:27,040
samples but we really test it in detail

382
00:14:31,590 --> 00:14:29,440
for photographs the reason why i'm

383
00:14:34,629 --> 00:14:31,600
saying this is because i just uh you

384
00:14:36,310 --> 00:14:34,639
know the same gentleman as i do glenn

385
00:14:37,990 --> 00:14:36,320
and he called me up on the phone the

386
00:14:39,990 --> 00:14:38,000
other day and he says he has absolute

387
00:14:41,509 --> 00:14:40,000
proof absolute proof it's on the table

388
00:14:43,590 --> 00:14:41,519
that the meyer

389
00:14:45,030 --> 00:14:43,600
incident is nothing but a hoax then he

390
00:14:46,790 --> 00:14:45,040
should stop selling the books and

391
00:14:48,870 --> 00:14:46,800
selling the videotapes and using the

392
00:14:51,030 --> 00:14:48,880
logo in his brochure well that's kind of

393
00:14:52,949 --> 00:14:51,040
what i said it's heinous that scientists

394
00:14:54,629 --> 00:14:52,959
and researchers do that i don't want to

395
00:14:57,030 --> 00:14:54,639
hear about any of this from these people

396
00:14:59,030 --> 00:14:57,040
sometimes i want to see the published

397
00:15:00,310 --> 00:14:59,040
reports that's what i wanted to science

398
00:15:01,990 --> 00:15:00,320
that's what i want i want to see the

399
00:15:04,150 --> 00:15:02,000
numbers and the software because people

400
00:15:05,829 --> 00:15:04,160
can say anything they want to and that's

401
00:15:07,829 --> 00:15:05,839
what i put him to the test too i said

402
00:15:10,150 --> 00:15:07,839
i'm a little tired of this too glenn

403
00:15:11,910 --> 00:15:10,160
yeah he says if you have it show it if

404
00:15:13,910 --> 00:15:11,920
you don't then leave it alone leave it

405
00:15:15,269 --> 00:15:13,920
down yeah glenn's a good guy i like him

406
00:15:19,430 --> 00:15:15,279
he's just

407
00:15:21,350 --> 00:15:19,440
listening to yet another definitive ufo

408
00:15:23,590 --> 00:15:21,360
photo expert

409
00:15:25,350 --> 00:15:23,600
who doesn't publish papers and doesn't

410
00:15:28,470 --> 00:15:25,360
reveal what the software is and what the

411
00:15:31,110 --> 00:15:28,480
hardware is and it's not that hard to do

412
00:15:33,829 --> 00:15:31,120
if someone was really doing it

413
00:15:36,310 --> 00:15:33,839
they would step up and say guess what i

414
00:15:38,310 --> 00:15:36,320
have a target board and i have a pc and

415
00:15:40,069 --> 00:15:38,320
i have a scanner and we've looked at the

416
00:15:41,269 --> 00:15:40,079
edges and i've done this and i've done

417
00:15:42,710 --> 00:15:41,279
that and

418
00:15:46,550 --> 00:15:42,720
you want to know what the software is

419
00:15:50,629 --> 00:15:48,629
it can be done oh yeah and all that

420
00:15:53,110 --> 00:15:50,639
someone has to do is truly want to know

421
00:15:54,629 --> 00:15:53,120
what it is and how it's done

422
00:15:56,470 --> 00:15:54,639
and they can find out and test the

423
00:15:59,590 --> 00:15:56,480
pictures themselves let's let's skip

424
00:16:01,670 --> 00:15:59,600
right on over to the um jorge martine

425
00:16:04,470 --> 00:16:01,680
case the puerto rico case you did an

426
00:16:06,870 --> 00:16:04,480
extensive work you presented a paper you

427
00:16:09,350 --> 00:16:06,880
gave it to jorge he presented it that

428
00:16:10,710 --> 00:16:09,360
mufon and yet they still there are

429
00:16:13,189 --> 00:16:10,720
certain people that rise up there and

430
00:16:14,389 --> 00:16:13,199
say this piece of paper is

431
00:16:16,470 --> 00:16:14,399
worthless

432
00:16:19,189 --> 00:16:16,480
yes but i was with you

433
00:16:22,069 --> 00:16:19,199
at the time that we scanned

434
00:16:25,430 --> 00:16:22,079
the photograph and i can't remember was

435
00:16:27,590 --> 00:16:25,440
2100 pixels an inch or something 424 was

436
00:16:30,470 --> 00:16:27,600
outrageous it was it was amazing how

437
00:16:32,310 --> 00:16:30,480
this was done and you looked for uh the

438
00:16:33,430 --> 00:16:32,320
cut and paste type of a thing you had

439
00:16:36,790 --> 00:16:33,440
the

440
00:16:38,310 --> 00:16:36,800
now

441
00:16:40,470 --> 00:16:38,320
this is the photograph that had the the

442
00:16:42,629 --> 00:16:40,480
disc in puerto rico and the the tomcat

443
00:16:44,629 --> 00:16:42,639
the navy tomcats more photographs four

444
00:16:46,550 --> 00:16:44,639
photographs and and you examined both

445
00:16:49,189 --> 00:16:46,560
the saucer and the

446
00:16:51,990 --> 00:16:49,199
tomcat and everything you know well we

447
00:16:53,990 --> 00:16:52,000
did even more than that we did a flight

448
00:16:57,509 --> 00:16:54,000
path simulation

449
00:16:59,269 --> 00:16:57,519
uh what would be required for the tomcat

450
00:17:02,870 --> 00:16:59,279
to leave formation

451
00:17:06,230 --> 00:17:02,880
and make passes on the ufo and to sweep

452
00:17:09,510 --> 00:17:06,240
its wings go into stall speed and move

453
00:17:13,029 --> 00:17:09,520
around the ufo for that time of day the

454
00:17:16,069 --> 00:17:13,039
lighting the edges the shading

455
00:17:17,590 --> 00:17:16,079
it's a tomcat and it's a ufo and none of

456
00:17:20,789 --> 00:17:17,600
those people that are detractors have

457
00:17:23,350 --> 00:17:20,799
tested the pictures if they really if

458
00:17:25,909 --> 00:17:23,360
they really were scientific about it i

459
00:17:28,069 --> 00:17:25,919
mean the phone book they'd call me up

460
00:17:31,510 --> 00:17:28,079
they talk about the procedures

461
00:17:32,549 --> 00:17:31,520
it's just a way that the ufo community

462
00:17:36,310 --> 00:17:32,559
operates

463
00:17:38,470 --> 00:17:36,320
they don't want the you to become an i

464
00:17:40,150 --> 00:17:38,480
an unidentified object to become an

465
00:17:42,710 --> 00:17:40,160
identified object there wouldn't be any

466
00:17:44,870 --> 00:17:42,720
reason to have these boy scout meetings

467
00:17:47,990 --> 00:17:44,880
anymore

468
00:17:48,789 --> 00:17:48,000
er pardon me scientific uh proceedings

469
00:17:53,510 --> 00:17:48,799
uh

470
00:17:54,870 --> 00:17:53,520
like it's so funny

471
00:17:57,430 --> 00:17:54,880
i don't know i don't have a clue what

472
00:17:59,190 --> 00:17:57,440
you're talking about

473
00:18:03,750 --> 00:17:59,200
by the way i want to get this in too

474
00:18:07,110 --> 00:18:05,669
you guys out there there's going to be

475
00:18:09,029 --> 00:18:07,120
some good

476
00:18:11,110 --> 00:18:09,039
good

477
00:18:13,110 --> 00:18:11,120
investigators coming to tim beckley's

478
00:18:14,230 --> 00:18:13,120
conference it's going to be up in

479
00:18:15,750 --> 00:18:14,240
where is it going to happen your

480
00:18:17,830 --> 00:18:15,760
hometown phoenix phoenix

481
00:18:19,110 --> 00:18:17,840
phoenix jim will be up there

482
00:18:20,549 --> 00:18:19,120
some of the people in the audience will

483
00:18:22,630 --> 00:18:20,559
be up there

484
00:18:25,190 --> 00:18:22,640
jenny randall some of the other people

485
00:18:27,029 --> 00:18:25,200
so it's the 24th of september

486
00:18:28,070 --> 00:18:27,039
that whole weekend

487
00:18:30,150 --> 00:18:28,080
there's going to be some other

488
00:18:31,830 --> 00:18:30,160
interesting people up there also so if

489
00:18:33,350 --> 00:18:31,840
you get a chance check it out and find

490
00:18:34,549 --> 00:18:33,360
out like the band will be there too well

491
00:18:36,549 --> 00:18:34,559
the band's going to be the band will be

492
00:18:39,270 --> 00:18:36,559
there i want to also introduce

493
00:18:40,549 --> 00:18:39,280
a band maybe right at the end so shane

494
00:18:42,390 --> 00:18:40,559
or one of you guys let me know when

495
00:18:44,070 --> 00:18:42,400
there's five minutes left and i'll bring

496
00:18:45,750 --> 00:18:44,080
jerry up here and in the band up here

497
00:18:47,510 --> 00:18:45,760
and we'll introduce the band and play

498
00:18:49,110 --> 00:18:47,520
some of the games that was the opening

499
00:18:49,990 --> 00:18:49,120
of the um

500
00:18:51,830 --> 00:18:50,000
uh

501
00:18:53,590 --> 00:18:51,840
we changed the opening so if you the

502
00:18:56,150 --> 00:18:53,600
music was a little different that was

503
00:18:58,789 --> 00:18:56,160
that was the band the ufo band well i

504
00:19:00,870 --> 00:18:58,799
was shot on a home camera last week it's

505
00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:00,880
uh it's a high eight tape it's not

506
00:19:05,190 --> 00:19:03,360
exactly our music video was the band no

507
00:19:07,830 --> 00:19:05,200
it was the music we had the music we had

508
00:19:08,950 --> 00:19:07,840
the music as the opening on it right um

509
00:19:11,350 --> 00:19:08,960
all right well let's get to what you

510
00:19:13,430 --> 00:19:11,360
have here uh if i can tell smitty or

511
00:19:14,789 --> 00:19:13,440
something if we can go ahead and

512
00:19:18,070 --> 00:19:14,799
utilize the screen

513
00:19:19,909 --> 00:19:18,080
it's a 486 portable computer i have a

514
00:19:23,110 --> 00:19:19,919
target board in it

515
00:19:24,950 --> 00:19:23,120
we network pcs over the phone lines

516
00:19:27,830 --> 00:19:24,960
in and out of mainframes and super

517
00:19:28,870 --> 00:19:27,840
computers our main day-to-day activity

518
00:19:31,270 --> 00:19:28,880
now is

519
00:19:33,430 --> 00:19:31,280
moving video data through high-speed

520
00:19:36,390 --> 00:19:33,440
networks in and out of super computers

521
00:19:38,390 --> 00:19:36,400
for video on demand which is part of

522
00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:38,400
image processing and a whole lot of

523
00:19:41,350 --> 00:19:40,240
other things but in order to see what we

524
00:19:42,230 --> 00:19:41,360
do here

525
00:19:43,590 --> 00:19:42,240
uh

526
00:19:46,390 --> 00:19:43,600
i'll have to be able to look at the

527
00:19:48,070 --> 00:19:46,400
monitor myself because when i go into

528
00:19:50,230 --> 00:19:48,080
the video mode

529
00:19:53,190 --> 00:19:50,240
so you want smitty to bring up the full

530
00:19:55,110 --> 00:19:53,200
screen okay so are you there

531
00:19:57,029 --> 00:19:55,120
look at jim yeah

532
00:19:59,669 --> 00:19:57,039
yeah i'm typing it in

533
00:20:01,190 --> 00:19:59,679
oh yeah so we're there

534
00:20:03,510 --> 00:20:01,200
well it's going to scan like that for a

535
00:20:06,470 --> 00:20:03,520
moment while it resets its mode i'll

536
00:20:15,110 --> 00:20:06,480
come back don't be alarmed it's

537
00:20:18,470 --> 00:20:16,630
well they took a deep breath there to

538
00:20:19,190 --> 00:20:18,480
turn the monitor just a little bit so i

539
00:20:23,510 --> 00:20:19,200
can

540
00:20:27,270 --> 00:20:25,270
that's very good

541
00:20:30,230 --> 00:20:27,280
okay explain what you're doing here jim

542
00:20:32,310 --> 00:20:30,240
well we're going into a standard windows

543
00:20:33,830 --> 00:20:32,320
program some of the applications that we

544
00:20:35,750 --> 00:20:33,840
have developed

545
00:20:37,110 --> 00:20:35,760
run in a

546
00:20:39,270 --> 00:20:37,120
an intel

547
00:20:41,669 --> 00:20:39,280
clone mode

548
00:20:43,510 --> 00:20:41,679
used to be ibm clone it's really an

549
00:20:45,750 --> 00:20:43,520
intel clone

550
00:20:47,909 --> 00:20:45,760
based on the processor that's in it

551
00:20:51,350 --> 00:20:47,919
and it's a windows program and we've

552
00:20:52,549 --> 00:20:51,360
written some applications for people at

553
00:20:54,870 --> 00:20:52,559
home

554
00:20:57,350 --> 00:20:54,880
to be able to

555
00:20:59,190 --> 00:20:57,360
look at ufo photographs

556
00:21:03,909 --> 00:20:59,200
so look at that first

557
00:21:06,149 --> 00:21:03,919
and study a ufo database it'll be in

558
00:21:08,390 --> 00:21:06,159
stores everywhere this is going to be on

559
00:21:11,510 --> 00:21:08,400
the cd-rom and also on flapping also on

560
00:21:13,110 --> 00:21:11,520
disk and on cd-roms yes i have the

561
00:21:14,710 --> 00:21:13,120
what we have

562
00:21:18,149 --> 00:21:14,720
see if i can

563
00:21:19,750 --> 00:21:18,159
aha i can't see my own menu there it

564
00:21:21,830 --> 00:21:19,760
goes just a hair off the screen we'll

565
00:21:23,909 --> 00:21:21,840
try to guess where it is while the rest

566
00:21:26,710 --> 00:21:23,919
of the program comes up

567
00:21:28,310 --> 00:21:26,720
has a map of the world

568
00:21:31,110 --> 00:21:28,320
to show where the different sightings

569
00:21:32,070 --> 00:21:31,120
are a sightings parameter

570
00:21:34,950 --> 00:21:32,080
uh

571
00:21:36,870 --> 00:21:34,960
selection here you can

572
00:21:40,549 --> 00:21:36,880
decide what years you want to check

573
00:21:42,230 --> 00:21:40,559
we're searching now from 1950 to 1993

574
00:21:43,669 --> 00:21:42,240
but we could go all the way back into

575
00:21:45,990 --> 00:21:43,679
antiquity

576
00:21:47,590 --> 00:21:46,000
what kind of citing close encounters one

577
00:21:49,830 --> 00:21:47,600
two and three

578
00:21:52,630 --> 00:21:49,840
for now let's just do sightings

579
00:21:55,270 --> 00:21:52,640
photographic evidence only

580
00:21:56,950 --> 00:21:55,280
no death or injury involved abduction

581
00:22:00,070 --> 00:21:56,960
psychic phenomena

582
00:22:02,630 --> 00:22:00,080
movies multiple witnesses multiple ufos

583
00:22:05,430 --> 00:22:02,640
or cattle mutilations

584
00:22:07,990 --> 00:22:05,440
let's go just for photographic evidence

585
00:22:11,029 --> 00:22:08,000
is going to check the database now

586
00:22:13,270 --> 00:22:11,039
and give us the number of matches

587
00:22:15,110 --> 00:22:13,280
now the hourglass here means that it's

588
00:22:18,470 --> 00:22:15,120
actually searching

589
00:22:20,870 --> 00:22:18,480
and the map of the world will uh locate

590
00:22:23,510 --> 00:22:20,880
all the actual sightings that it has

591
00:22:25,270 --> 00:22:23,520
found as actual matches

592
00:22:28,230 --> 00:22:25,280
that's in brazil isn't it that one there

593
00:22:33,750 --> 00:22:30,630
well some of these uh are

594
00:22:36,149 --> 00:22:33,760
uh historically important because they

595
00:22:39,190 --> 00:22:36,159
have established trends

596
00:22:40,549 --> 00:22:39,200
of different uh sightings from around

597
00:22:43,830 --> 00:22:40,559
the world

598
00:22:45,750 --> 00:22:43,840
let's go to the next one so you can see

599
00:22:48,149 --> 00:22:45,760
right here it says the number of matches

600
00:22:50,950 --> 00:22:48,159
is 201

601
00:22:53,190 --> 00:22:50,960
and it's going to light up on the map

602
00:22:54,870 --> 00:22:53,200
give a description this one is from

603
00:22:57,510 --> 00:22:54,880
uruguay

604
00:22:59,830 --> 00:22:57,520
if i'm reading it correctly

605
00:23:07,270 --> 00:23:01,430
and there's a description over here of

606
00:23:10,789 --> 00:23:09,110
who was the uh where did the this

607
00:23:12,549 --> 00:23:10,799
information come from who was the main

608
00:23:15,350 --> 00:23:12,559
programmer on it to be able to get this

609
00:23:18,230 --> 00:23:15,360
this type of information and programming

610
00:23:20,149 --> 00:23:18,240
dr david white

611
00:23:22,870 --> 00:23:20,159
who is a uh

612
00:23:26,390 --> 00:23:22,880
pretty well known uh computer programmer

613
00:23:29,270 --> 00:23:26,400
um and photo database creator

614
00:23:30,630 --> 00:23:29,280
some of his other projects include well

615
00:23:33,669 --> 00:23:30,640
in his company

616
00:23:37,750 --> 00:23:33,679
which is smc of phoenix uh

617
00:23:41,590 --> 00:23:37,760
body works auto map pc globe some very

618
00:23:43,750 --> 00:23:41,600
popular pretty well known programs okay

619
00:23:46,310 --> 00:23:43,760
the updates

620
00:23:48,470 --> 00:23:46,320
will be available on phone lines if you

621
00:23:51,510 --> 00:23:48,480
have a modem you can dial up and get an

622
00:23:54,149 --> 00:23:51,520
update of some of the new cases or for

623
00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:54,159
investigators we have created other

624
00:24:00,070 --> 00:23:56,720
modules so you can actually use your

625
00:24:02,950 --> 00:24:00,080
home computer scanner fax machine a

626
00:24:04,549 --> 00:24:02,960
variety of communications formats to be

627
00:24:06,789 --> 00:24:04,559
able to ship pictures

628
00:24:08,870 --> 00:24:06,799
and case file formats around to each

629
00:24:11,269 --> 00:24:08,880
other how about video

630
00:24:12,070 --> 00:24:11,279
well video if you have a target board or

631
00:24:35,350 --> 00:24:12,080
a

632
00:24:38,630 --> 00:24:35,360
schools for

633
00:24:40,070 --> 00:24:38,640
scientists engineers researchers uh

634
00:24:42,870 --> 00:24:40,080
scientists in the conventional

635
00:24:44,830 --> 00:24:42,880
scientific community that secretly want

636
00:24:46,870 --> 00:24:44,840
to know about ufo

637
00:24:48,950 --> 00:24:46,880
investigations but it's been

638
00:24:50,390 --> 00:24:48,960
sufficiently discredited that they have

639
00:24:52,549 --> 00:24:50,400
to do it in a

640
00:24:55,269 --> 00:24:52,559
in the closet in the closet

641
00:24:56,950 --> 00:24:55,279
well uh we we're having these people uh

642
00:24:59,190 --> 00:24:56,960
probably within the two weeks they're

643
00:25:01,590 --> 00:24:59,200
going to come on and demonstrate all of

644
00:25:04,390 --> 00:25:01,600
this this type of software and explain

645
00:25:06,950 --> 00:25:04,400
where this comes from how how uh how it

646
00:25:08,549 --> 00:25:06,960
was devised what the reason were they

647
00:25:10,950 --> 00:25:08,559
contacted jim and i and they wanted to

648
00:25:12,070 --> 00:25:10,960
know if we'd be interested in it and we

649
00:25:13,750 --> 00:25:12,080
said

650
00:25:15,269 --> 00:25:13,760
yeah sure come right there i'm gonna

651
00:25:17,510 --> 00:25:15,279
come right down that's very good come

652
00:25:20,710 --> 00:25:17,520
right down now will this this does this

653
00:25:22,470 --> 00:25:20,720
help you in doing anything uh

654
00:25:24,870 --> 00:25:22,480
in your investigation to make sure the

655
00:25:27,590 --> 00:25:24,880
photos are photos not in this this is

656
00:25:29,830 --> 00:25:27,600
for uh the general public to have access

657
00:25:31,909 --> 00:25:29,840
to photographs this is just an archive

658
00:25:34,310 --> 00:25:31,919
it's an archive it's a database it's a

659
00:25:36,870 --> 00:25:34,320
library it's a filing cabinet but it's

660
00:25:40,390 --> 00:25:36,880
not an analysis no it's not an analysis

661
00:25:43,110 --> 00:25:40,400
tool the photographs that we test

662
00:25:45,269 --> 00:25:43,120
then go back to wendell stevens or over

663
00:25:47,269 --> 00:25:45,279
to dave white or

664
00:25:49,110 --> 00:25:47,279
over to michael the president of the

665
00:25:52,149 --> 00:25:49,120
software company and

666
00:25:53,430 --> 00:25:52,159
they decide if it's a case of interest

667
00:25:56,549 --> 00:25:53,440
to the public and then it gets

668
00:25:59,510 --> 00:25:56,559
programmed into the updates

669
00:26:01,350 --> 00:25:59,520
the analysis tools that we use

670
00:26:03,669 --> 00:26:01,360
on pcs

671
00:26:06,230 --> 00:26:03,679
i i use

672
00:26:11,029 --> 00:26:06,240
well a professional image processing

673
00:26:13,590 --> 00:26:11,039
package from a company in new mexico uh

674
00:26:16,390 --> 00:26:13,600
programmers from los alamos and that

675
00:26:18,070 --> 00:26:16,400
program is not expensive it's about five

676
00:26:20,310 --> 00:26:18,080
hundred dollars used to be fifty

677
00:26:23,029 --> 00:26:20,320
thousand photo styler it's a couple

678
00:26:25,350 --> 00:26:23,039
hundred dollars now the videos come out

679
00:26:27,830 --> 00:26:25,360
and and everybody has a video camera it

680
00:26:32,070 --> 00:26:27,840
seems like is it harder or easier to

681
00:26:33,990 --> 00:26:32,080
identify a a hoaxer or a photograph or i

682
00:26:36,149 --> 00:26:34,000
don't know a piece of uh

683
00:26:38,470 --> 00:26:36,159
film it isn't film a piece of tape well

684
00:26:40,630 --> 00:26:38,480
video isn't

685
00:26:43,190 --> 00:26:40,640
isn't very easy to analyze because the

686
00:26:47,909 --> 00:26:43,200
resolution is so poor

687
00:26:49,430 --> 00:26:47,919
400 lines 200 lines 500 lines across the

688
00:26:51,750 --> 00:26:49,440
entire image

689
00:26:53,990 --> 00:26:51,760
whereas in photography

690
00:26:56,390 --> 00:26:54,000
we could for all intents say that

691
00:26:58,549 --> 00:26:56,400
photography is really eight thousand

692
00:26:59,430 --> 00:26:58,559
lines

693
00:27:02,070 --> 00:26:59,440
so

694
00:27:04,710 --> 00:27:02,080
when you transfer a photographic image

695
00:27:08,310 --> 00:27:04,720
to the computer it becomes

696
00:27:09,510 --> 00:27:08,320
a thousand lines per inch or 500 lines

697
00:27:12,549 --> 00:27:09,520
per inch

698
00:27:16,470 --> 00:27:12,559
video is between 500

699
00:27:18,230 --> 00:27:16,480
and 75 dots per inch so film the old

700
00:27:19,669 --> 00:27:18,240
film the old super 8 would have been

701
00:27:22,950 --> 00:27:19,679
much better to take a picture of

702
00:27:25,269 --> 00:27:22,960
absolutely because of the way of uh the

703
00:27:28,710 --> 00:27:25,279
emulsion right

704
00:27:31,269 --> 00:27:28,720
okay now if you have to instruct

705
00:27:32,310 --> 00:27:31,279
somebody out there that is driving down

706
00:27:33,350 --> 00:27:32,320
the

707
00:27:35,110 --> 00:27:33,360
street

708
00:27:36,470 --> 00:27:35,120
or wakes up and hears a beep in their

709
00:27:39,029 --> 00:27:36,480
head

710
00:27:41,590 --> 00:27:39,039
shouldn't they get a piece of landscape

711
00:27:43,990 --> 00:27:41,600
as much as possible in the frame of the

712
00:27:46,630 --> 00:27:44,000
picture isn't that what you would like

713
00:27:50,310 --> 00:27:46,640
so we have a reference so we can compare

714
00:27:53,590 --> 00:27:50,320
the edges of the unknown object to a

715
00:27:54,870 --> 00:27:53,600
tree a rock so we either know how big an

716
00:27:56,470 --> 00:27:54,880
object is

717
00:27:59,110 --> 00:27:56,480
like a cactus

718
00:28:01,669 --> 00:27:59,120
or we know how far away

719
00:28:04,389 --> 00:28:01,679
something is like a sign post

720
00:28:05,590 --> 00:28:04,399
we have to compare all the edges in the

721
00:28:07,750 --> 00:28:05,600
photograph

722
00:28:10,149 --> 00:28:07,760
of known things

723
00:28:12,149 --> 00:28:10,159
to the property of the edges in the

724
00:28:15,750 --> 00:28:12,159
unknown whether it's an airplane or a

725
00:28:18,549 --> 00:28:15,760
car or ufo so we can rank

726
00:28:19,750 --> 00:28:18,559
how far away objects are by the property

727
00:28:22,630 --> 00:28:19,760
of the edges

728
00:28:25,029 --> 00:28:22,640
it's actually kind of simple to do

729
00:28:26,630 --> 00:28:25,039
now bruce mcabee is another person that

730
00:28:29,029 --> 00:28:26,640
that seems to be

731
00:28:30,630 --> 00:28:29,039
in the limelight of

732
00:28:33,029 --> 00:28:30,640
investigating photographs i think he

733
00:28:34,870 --> 00:28:33,039
does a lot of work for for mufon uh do

734
00:28:36,549 --> 00:28:34,880
you guys use the same type of is there a

735
00:28:40,789 --> 00:28:36,559
standard

736
00:28:43,190 --> 00:28:40,799
photographs

737
00:28:44,789 --> 00:28:43,200
what is there a standard with bruce

738
00:28:47,190 --> 00:28:44,799
mcafee

739
00:28:50,149 --> 00:28:47,200
bruce mcabee there is no published

740
00:28:51,990 --> 00:28:50,159
standard there is nothing that mufon

741
00:28:54,549 --> 00:28:52,000
i've only talked to bruce mcabee on the

742
00:28:57,190 --> 00:28:54,559
phone he's probably a very fine

743
00:29:00,389 --> 00:28:57,200
gentleman i don't consider his procedure

744
00:29:01,430 --> 00:29:00,399
scientific at all it's a bunch of hoo-ha

745
00:29:04,070 --> 00:29:01,440
and

746
00:29:05,669 --> 00:29:04,080
if it was a scientific procedure the

747
00:29:07,350 --> 00:29:05,679
papers would be

748
00:29:09,590 --> 00:29:07,360
requested from me

749
00:29:11,269 --> 00:29:09,600
he would publish his papers

750
00:29:13,430 --> 00:29:11,279
and

751
00:29:15,990 --> 00:29:13,440
the people at mufon just oh i'm not

752
00:29:17,510 --> 00:29:16,000
saying that jim i'm not putting anybody

753
00:29:18,950 --> 00:29:17,520
because there's there's paul nathan

754
00:29:21,190 --> 00:29:18,960
that's doing it i was just wondering

755
00:29:22,389 --> 00:29:21,200
nathan is it bob nathan yes

756
00:29:25,269 --> 00:29:22,399
uh

757
00:29:27,669 --> 00:29:25,279
is there a standard is there a guideline

758
00:29:28,950 --> 00:29:27,679
that everybody should have to go by and

759
00:29:31,350 --> 00:29:28,960
then

760
00:29:34,310 --> 00:29:31,360
go out from there they should use our

761
00:29:36,789 --> 00:29:34,320
standard and then they should study that

762
00:29:39,669 --> 00:29:36,799
and go adopt another one until you've

763
00:29:42,710 --> 00:29:39,679
built as many models as we have tested i

764
00:29:44,950 --> 00:29:42,720
mean literally toy airplanes larger ones

765
00:29:46,230 --> 00:29:44,960
parked in the ground flying in the air

766
00:29:48,870 --> 00:29:46,240
moving

767
00:29:50,630 --> 00:29:48,880
database after database and have

768
00:29:52,710 --> 00:29:50,640
controls

769
00:29:54,789 --> 00:29:52,720
that you know what to work with

770
00:29:56,710 --> 00:29:54,799
you really can't assess something and

771
00:29:59,350 --> 00:29:56,720
say oh it's a small model i know how it

772
00:30:00,950 --> 00:29:59,360
was done it's not scientific

773
00:30:03,430 --> 00:30:00,960
and not that everything has to be

774
00:30:05,590 --> 00:30:03,440
scientific in this to the hilt

775
00:30:07,510 --> 00:30:05,600
but it's how you arrive at the truth and

776
00:30:09,830 --> 00:30:07,520
we want to know what the truth is are

777
00:30:12,710 --> 00:30:09,840
there people from other worlds

778
00:30:14,389 --> 00:30:12,720
flying remarkable flying machines and

779
00:30:15,350 --> 00:30:14,399
coming down to earth we want to know

780
00:30:16,710 --> 00:30:15,360
that

781
00:30:19,269 --> 00:30:16,720
i want people

782
00:30:21,510 --> 00:30:19,279
bluffing me that they've tested pictures

783
00:30:22,870 --> 00:30:21,520
and that we've made mistakes when we

784
00:30:25,430 --> 00:30:22,880
really haven't

785
00:30:26,710 --> 00:30:25,440
what a horrible thing to do

786
00:30:29,029 --> 00:30:26,720
to people

787
00:30:30,630 --> 00:30:29,039
out there that really want to know if

788
00:30:31,590 --> 00:30:30,640
people from another planet are coming

789
00:30:34,070 --> 00:30:31,600
here

790
00:30:35,669 --> 00:30:34,080
for amateur scientists to say that

791
00:30:37,190 --> 00:30:35,679
they've tested pictures when they

792
00:30:39,510 --> 00:30:37,200
haven't

793
00:30:41,430 --> 00:30:39,520
and to say that a picture is true when

794
00:30:43,269 --> 00:30:41,440
it isn't and to debunk the ones that are

795
00:30:45,269 --> 00:30:43,279
true all of that well that's been one of

796
00:30:47,590 --> 00:30:45,279
the problems in the ufo investigating

797
00:30:49,430 --> 00:30:47,600
feel that that that photographs it's

798
00:30:53,110 --> 00:30:49,440
been you know the cliche the photographs

799
00:30:55,029 --> 00:30:53,120
are not useful uh tools uh as as

800
00:30:57,590 --> 00:30:55,039
evidence you're saying that that a

801
00:31:00,149 --> 00:30:57,600
photograph is a useful tool you have

802
00:31:02,710 --> 00:31:00,159
found a technique where whereby

803
00:31:04,549 --> 00:31:02,720
actual photographs are useful tools in

804
00:31:06,149 --> 00:31:04,559
investigation through a scientific

805
00:31:07,830 --> 00:31:06,159
method and that's what i was trying to

806
00:31:09,590 --> 00:31:07,840
ask if there were guidelines to go by

807
00:31:11,430 --> 00:31:09,600
and jim just said the guidelines that

808
00:31:12,789 --> 00:31:11,440
they've because there were there wasn't

809
00:31:14,710 --> 00:31:12,799
any at the time that

810
00:31:15,990 --> 00:31:14,720
that he did it and scientifically made

811
00:31:18,230 --> 00:31:16,000
the guidelines

812
00:31:20,389 --> 00:31:18,240
but i think still still this is a stigma

813
00:31:23,110 --> 00:31:20,399
that goes with in in the community that

814
00:31:25,750 --> 00:31:23,120
that well you have ufo photographs are

815
00:31:27,590 --> 00:31:25,760
not reliable end of story and and you're

816
00:31:30,630 --> 00:31:27,600
saying that they can be shown to they

817
00:31:34,310 --> 00:31:30,640
can be if uh dealt with in a scientific

818
00:31:36,870 --> 00:31:34,320
procedure such as a polygraph test or

819
00:31:39,029 --> 00:31:36,880
voice stress analysis they

820
00:31:42,630 --> 00:31:39,039
must be interpreted scientifically and

821
00:31:45,430 --> 00:31:42,640
must be done in a repeatable procedure

822
00:31:47,830 --> 00:31:45,440
so that another scientist can follow

823
00:31:49,350 --> 00:31:47,840
that same procedure and get the same

824
00:31:52,710 --> 00:31:49,360
results

825
00:31:53,990 --> 00:31:52,720
that's what makes good science

826
00:31:55,350 --> 00:31:54,000
so what's the next step where are we

827
00:31:56,789 --> 00:31:55,360
going with this are you working on any

828
00:31:59,350 --> 00:31:56,799
new cases right now or any new

829
00:32:00,789 --> 00:31:59,360
photographs that that you can talk about

830
00:32:03,909 --> 00:32:00,799
well i've been

831
00:32:06,549 --> 00:32:03,919
the last year or so studying photographs

832
00:32:08,950 --> 00:32:06,559
from mexico and south america

833
00:32:10,789 --> 00:32:08,960
puerto rico and photographs taken at

834
00:32:12,950 --> 00:32:10,799
night i have a new interest in

835
00:32:15,269 --> 00:32:12,960
photographs taken at night

836
00:32:16,630 --> 00:32:15,279
the color patterns and the movement

837
00:32:18,310 --> 00:32:16,640
patterns

838
00:32:20,549 --> 00:32:18,320
now you're saying photographs well

839
00:32:22,789 --> 00:32:20,559
photographs and video imagery okay the

840
00:32:23,830 --> 00:32:22,799
most interesting pictures

841
00:32:26,549 --> 00:32:23,840
um

842
00:32:32,070 --> 00:32:26,559
that i've seen uh have not been uh

843
00:32:35,750 --> 00:32:34,070
yeah i could probably talk about those

844
00:32:37,269 --> 00:32:35,760
in fact maybe they have been released

845
00:32:39,190 --> 00:32:37,279
you know i don't know everything that

846
00:32:42,789 --> 00:32:39,200
reaches the media

847
00:32:45,430 --> 00:32:42,799
but the photographs are of a ufo during

848
00:32:47,509 --> 00:32:45,440
cinco de mayo during the celebration in

849
00:32:48,789 --> 00:32:47,519
cinco de mayo

850
00:32:52,630 --> 00:32:48,799
and uh

851
00:32:54,070 --> 00:32:52,640
multiple videographers took images of a

852
00:32:57,669 --> 00:32:54,080
ufo

853
00:33:00,789 --> 00:32:57,679
during an air parade mexican helicopters

854
00:33:03,430 --> 00:33:00,799
fly into the image bank and go away

855
00:33:06,389 --> 00:33:03,440
while a ufo drops straight down out of

856
00:33:08,549 --> 00:33:06,399
the sky while jets begin to fly in

857
00:33:10,870 --> 00:33:08,559
formation and the ufo falls right

858
00:33:14,389 --> 00:33:10,880
through them right hovers moves and

859
00:33:16,470 --> 00:33:14,399
begins to fly at great speed moves

860
00:33:18,310 --> 00:33:16,480
well in unconventional ways

861
00:33:20,310 --> 00:33:18,320
and so isn't some of that footage in

862
00:33:22,470 --> 00:33:20,320
messengers from destiny messengers of

863
00:33:24,710 --> 00:33:22,480
destiny yes it is video taken from

864
00:33:26,789 --> 00:33:24,720
another angle by another videographer

865
00:33:28,389 --> 00:33:26,799
okay and you've also

866
00:33:30,789 --> 00:33:28,399
examined the uh

867
00:33:32,149 --> 00:33:30,799
the videos from mexico city during the

868
00:33:33,590 --> 00:33:32,159
solar eclipse

869
00:33:35,909 --> 00:33:33,600
just okay

870
00:33:38,470 --> 00:33:35,919
what are your findings from that

871
00:33:40,950 --> 00:33:38,480
well the image quality is poor in that

872
00:33:42,950 --> 00:33:40,960
uh it's an interesting object

873
00:33:45,590 --> 00:33:42,960
uh what i've really been studying is

874
00:33:46,870 --> 00:33:45,600
whether or not it could be venus

875
00:33:49,029 --> 00:33:46,880
is that right

876
00:33:51,590 --> 00:33:49,039
right now there were some that that the

877
00:33:53,990 --> 00:33:51,600
elders were showing on there uh that had

878
00:33:55,990 --> 00:33:54,000
a similarity to the same or the same

879
00:33:57,830 --> 00:33:56,000
reaction to the similarity of one of the

880
00:33:59,830 --> 00:33:57,840
beam ships that uh

881
00:34:01,190 --> 00:33:59,840
that were uh in the

882
00:34:02,630 --> 00:34:01,200
maya case

883
00:34:04,310 --> 00:34:02,640
have you seen that or know anything

884
00:34:06,870 --> 00:34:04,320
about that i haven't seen that

885
00:34:08,310 --> 00:34:06,880
yeah it it had the same characteristics

886
00:34:10,149 --> 00:34:08,320
and they they were talking about the

887
00:34:11,589 --> 00:34:10,159
capella that was up on top of it and how

888
00:34:13,270 --> 00:34:11,599
they could see that and the way it the

889
00:34:14,790 --> 00:34:13,280
way it moved and wobbled

890
00:34:16,550 --> 00:34:14,800
now how about were you involved in any

891
00:34:18,230 --> 00:34:16,560
of the meyer case in the film the actual

892
00:34:20,869 --> 00:34:18,240
movie of the film where it flies around

893
00:34:23,030 --> 00:34:20,879
the tree and back around the tree yes

894
00:34:23,990 --> 00:34:23,040
and it's the same type of an operation

895
00:34:26,310 --> 00:34:24,000
that

896
00:34:28,149 --> 00:34:26,320
you uh look for as if it was just a

897
00:34:30,310 --> 00:34:28,159
photograph you just do

898
00:34:32,790 --> 00:34:30,320
one frame at a time isn't that right

899
00:34:34,389 --> 00:34:32,800
and look for the center of gravity

900
00:34:36,869 --> 00:34:34,399
and look for the

901
00:34:38,950 --> 00:34:36,879
center of the apex of the pendulum if it

902
00:34:40,470 --> 00:34:38,960
was suspended by a string

903
00:34:43,030 --> 00:34:40,480
an attempt to

904
00:34:45,349 --> 00:34:43,040
follow the movement if it was hanging on

905
00:34:47,470 --> 00:34:45,359
a pendulum and circulating around the

906
00:34:48,790 --> 00:34:47,480
tree as has been said

907
00:34:50,869 --> 00:34:48,800
[Music]

908
00:34:53,349 --> 00:34:50,879
what would the ark have to be what would

909
00:34:55,270 --> 00:34:53,359
the movement be impossible to do it

910
00:34:57,589 --> 00:34:55,280
uh on a fish line

911
00:35:00,630 --> 00:34:57,599
by the way to a television producer

912
00:35:01,750 --> 00:35:00,640
bruce mcabee did indeed admit

913
00:35:04,950 --> 00:35:01,760
to

914
00:35:07,190 --> 00:35:04,960
a producer uh at unsolved mysteries bob

915
00:35:10,150 --> 00:35:07,200
kiviat that he indeed never really

916
00:35:11,829 --> 00:35:10,160
tested the meyer photographs

917
00:35:13,589 --> 00:35:11,839
well i never knew he did i was talking

918
00:35:15,109 --> 00:35:13,599
more on the uh the golf brief stuff that

919
00:35:17,190 --> 00:35:15,119
he's done and his name always comes to

920
00:35:18,790 --> 00:35:17,200
the forefront when you talk with mufon

921
00:35:20,069 --> 00:35:18,800
it's their probably their go-to guy

922
00:35:21,990 --> 00:35:20,079
anyway and i just want to know if there

923
00:35:24,310 --> 00:35:22,000
was some

924
00:35:26,150 --> 00:35:24,320
some commonality between your testing

925
00:35:27,910 --> 00:35:26,160
and his testing

926
00:35:29,829 --> 00:35:27,920
we will collaborate sometime you never

927
00:35:32,150 --> 00:35:29,839
know at the moment i don't consider it

928
00:35:33,829 --> 00:35:32,160
scientific at all mufon has put a lot of

929
00:35:35,990 --> 00:35:33,839
distance between themselves and the

930
00:35:37,829 --> 00:35:36,000
meyer case oh i i i realize that i

931
00:35:39,990 --> 00:35:37,839
realize that for for whatever reason

932
00:35:42,069 --> 00:35:40,000
they they've seen to grab a hold of the

933
00:35:44,230 --> 00:35:42,079
golf resetting and worked with in in the

934
00:35:47,990 --> 00:35:44,240
the film contact there's uh there's some

935
00:35:51,910 --> 00:35:49,349
i believe that you've done where it

936
00:35:53,510 --> 00:35:51,920
shows the craft and counter rotating

937
00:35:55,430 --> 00:35:53,520
lights

938
00:35:57,990 --> 00:35:55,440
uh on the craft

939
00:36:00,710 --> 00:35:58,000
now is that is is that the a light

940
00:36:02,150 --> 00:36:00,720
configuration that meyer reported no we

941
00:36:04,870 --> 00:36:02,160
studied

942
00:36:06,390 --> 00:36:04,880
the uh motion picture film which he shot

943
00:36:09,109 --> 00:36:06,400
on eight millimeter

944
00:36:12,470 --> 00:36:09,119
and enhanced frame by frame the eight

945
00:36:15,750 --> 00:36:12,480
millimeter film and recreated

946
00:36:17,270 --> 00:36:15,760
the reflections

947
00:36:19,030 --> 00:36:17,280
on the craft i wouldn't say that those

948
00:36:20,390 --> 00:36:19,040
are light sources i think that they are

949
00:36:22,310 --> 00:36:20,400
reflections

950
00:36:24,470 --> 00:36:22,320
what it appears to be

951
00:36:27,910 --> 00:36:24,480
are pencil

952
00:36:30,150 --> 00:36:27,920
thin rods that all move up and down move

953
00:36:32,230 --> 00:36:30,160
up and down like this and create a wave

954
00:36:33,750 --> 00:36:32,240
motion that moves around the craft and

955
00:36:36,390 --> 00:36:33,760
then that's around the the outer

956
00:36:39,829 --> 00:36:38,470
um there's another set of photographs

957
00:36:41,109 --> 00:36:39,839
from the meyer case which showed the

958
00:36:43,030 --> 00:36:41,119
craft

959
00:36:44,310 --> 00:36:43,040
a set of stills this is not not the

960
00:36:46,710 --> 00:36:44,320
movie footage

961
00:36:50,390 --> 00:36:46,720
where the sh the craft in a sequence

962
00:36:51,430 --> 00:36:50,400
goes around very closely to a pine tree

963
00:36:52,150 --> 00:36:51,440
did you

964
00:36:54,550 --> 00:36:52,160
have

965
00:36:57,270 --> 00:36:54,560
opportunity to examine that film looks

966
00:36:59,829 --> 00:36:57,280
suspicious doesn't it well one of the

967
00:37:01,829 --> 00:36:59,839
exactly it does one of the uh the main

968
00:37:02,870 --> 00:37:01,839
detractors is that this is this is a

969
00:37:04,310 --> 00:37:02,880
potted

970
00:37:05,270 --> 00:37:04,320
miniature tree

971
00:37:07,190 --> 00:37:05,280
and an

972
00:37:09,510 --> 00:37:07,200
uh model is being

973
00:37:13,750 --> 00:37:09,520
you know placed around it

974
00:37:15,829 --> 00:37:13,760
what was your conclusion of examination

975
00:37:17,670 --> 00:37:15,839
because of the characteristics of the

976
00:37:18,790 --> 00:37:17,680
reflection off of the surface of the

977
00:37:21,910 --> 00:37:18,800
craft

978
00:37:23,910 --> 00:37:21,920
the properties of the edges compared to

979
00:37:25,270 --> 00:37:23,920
the edges in the house and the edges on

980
00:37:27,990 --> 00:37:25,280
the tree

981
00:37:29,510 --> 00:37:28,000
that's what you do edge enhancement for

982
00:37:32,069 --> 00:37:29,520
there's that many objects in the

983
00:37:35,109 --> 00:37:32,079
photograph you test for them all

984
00:37:38,069 --> 00:37:35,119
sometimes it's painstaking it can take

985
00:37:39,829 --> 00:37:38,079
hundreds of hours to run all the filters

986
00:37:42,230 --> 00:37:39,839
on one photograph

987
00:37:44,470 --> 00:37:42,240
hundreds of hours

988
00:37:46,150 --> 00:37:44,480
and i was not getting a sun tan while

989
00:37:48,069 --> 00:37:46,160
all that was happening

990
00:37:51,750 --> 00:37:48,079
while sitting by the computer didn't

991
00:37:52,870 --> 00:37:51,760
wendell also give give you a known

992
00:37:54,950 --> 00:37:52,880
fake

993
00:37:56,710 --> 00:37:54,960
yes and to see whether or not you could

994
00:37:58,630 --> 00:37:56,720
find this without your knowledge find

995
00:38:00,550 --> 00:37:58,640
out that if this was that's correct it

996
00:38:02,710 --> 00:38:00,560
was a fake